I think I'd really enjoy this game if it didn't play so choppily on my computer. Sure, it's simple and somewhat vacant, but I think it's enjoyable to run around in an imaginative environment creating chaos. But a game this simple really shouldn't have the highish system requirements that it does.

> {quote:title=BurnedToast wrote:}{quote}
> I've tried out the first episode and I hate to say I agree the game deserves poor reviews.
>
> I mean seriously, you can't even really call it a game because that implies some sort of gameplay which this title lacks. You just run in circles, make the occasional small jump, and 'butt stomp' the highlighted object. That's it as far as I can tell.
>
> I don't understand who the game is supposed to appeal to. The 'gameplay' is more basic and less challenging then edutainment tiles meant for small children, and yet the subject matter seems to be targeted to adults (or at least teenagers). Who's supposed to enjoy this game again?
>
> That Gametap is shelling out for 24 episodes of this really strikes me as kind of hilarious and also terribly sad at the same time.


You should try the latest one, it's +FREAKIN' AWESOME!+ AND IT EVEN HAS FRUSTRATING-TO-GET-SECRETSSSSSS!

> {quote:title=LuigiHann wrote:}{quote}
> I think I'd really enjoy this game if it didn't play so choppily on my computer. Sure, it's simple and somewhat vacant, but I think it's enjoyable to run around in an imaginative environment creating chaos. But a game this simple really shouldn't have the highish system requirements that it does.

Dude, It's not your computer, I can run Grid and Portal and other new high-end games, but Grimm lags on mine too.

A couple of thoughts:
1. We know the game is super simple. It was designed that way. Not only designed - but tested. The issue IS one of "target audience". Our goal was to build something that [b]anyone[/b] could sit down and play. And the biggest challenge was to create something game-like but impossible to fail at. That last part - "impossible to fail" - is, I think, where a lot of experienced gamers are taking issue with the game. There is no threat of death, no potential to fail. But take a moment to understand WHY we built it like that before assuming it's a flaw. In test after test we watched as novice gamers struggled with even the most basic concepts of 3D platforming. They [b]wanted[/b] to get into the game, to see what was around the next corner, and to witness the story unfolding - but whenever we put death inducing, "hard core" mechanics into the game, we got: FAIL --- So, in some ways, Grimm is like an interactive narrative. Just enough challenge and game play to satisfy while not frustrating - and a huge heaping of cool art and engaging narrative. We knew from the start that more experienced or hard-core gamers would find it difficult to attach to.
2. Time trials, power-ups, more puzzles, etc. We are listening to the audience on these requests and we ARE putting more of this into the game. You'll see the challenge and even (dare I say it) the "hardcore-ness" of the game ratchet up over time. Look at it another way: You're playing the game in :30 minute chunks, and so far each chunk has gotten progressively more challenging and introduced new game mechanics or concepts. So, by the time we get to episode 24... who knows, maybe the game will even throw you into a lake of lava while rocket launcher machines rain constant death upon your heads. THEN you'll be in hardcore heaven!
3. Grimm IS processor intensive, but can run on low-end machines. The trick is to adjust your settings appropriate to your system spec AND - this is really important - close any/all programs running in the background. Even on a beefy machine, we've seen framerate drop in half while Outlook checks for new messages or some other background task happens. Unlike a lot of the games you mention running fast - Grimm relies heavily on your actual system processor (not just the video card). So do what you can to ensure the processor can be dedicated to Grimm, and hopefully you'll get smoother performance.

Finally, the team at Spicy Horse (myself included) appreciate any and all constructive criticism. For me, one of the most important things about the "experiment" called Grimm is utilizing user feedback to improve the game experience over time. It's unique that we're able to evolve a game while the game is in the market - I hope all of you will continue to participate in the evolution of the medium.

We, at Spicy Horse? A-dawg, I that like totally you?

> {quote:title=AmericanGT wrote:}{quote}
> Finally, the team at Spicy Horse (myself included) appreciate any and all constructive criticism. For me, one of the most important things about the "experiment" called Grimm is utilizing user feedback to improve the game experience over time. It's unique that we're able to evolve a game while the game is in the market - I hope all of you will continue to participate in the evolution of the medium.

Also, THAT is what makes Grimm such a personal and FIIIIINE example of a series, kind of like how Sam & Max got kinda sucky but episode 4 pwned because teltale took what people said was wrong with it and fixed it as was called for.This is why episodic gaming is such a cool business model! IT'S NOT LIKE CODEMASTERS AND THEIR PUNY GRID PATCHES, THIS IS FOR REAL! WHAT THE PEOPLE KINDLY ASK FOR (WITHIN REASON) THEY ALWAYS GET! YES! YES! YEEES! (jumping fun!)

AmericanGT, thank you so much for responding! On behalf of the "casual gamers" I thank you for your game! I am not sure if I will be able to play through all the games with the difficulty ramping up though lol! Platforming is the hardest thing for me due to lack of skill and feeling in my hands. Nonetheless, I am having a blast and just wanted to say thanks!!

Grimm is awesome!!

And on behalf of the "Hardcore gamers that would rather be called something else because the "real hardcore gamers" are stupid fanboys" crowd I thank you for Aesop, I mean Grimm, I mean no, WAIT!

EDIT: I just re-read AmericanGT's post about WHY it was made so simple. I understand what you are saying. I just think that GT is not your target audience for that simple of a game. Just look at the boards.

[b]Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to launch over at MSN or Yahoo games for free - where there are more novice gamers to the 3D platform.[/b] Many GT users are probably not on the forums so you aren't getting a great corss-section of GT users - but still, this is probably not the place to debut a game for novices to 3D games and then completely fill the LEADERBOARD with them. Seriously? Most novice gamers are not really going to compete in leaderboards - it's the experienced ones that will, and of course they get annoyed when you take away the real competitive games and replace the tournaments with the novice-geared Grimm series.

Part of the reason I didn't care much for Grimm was the graphical needs. My machine is just a little too slow and after playing a few stages in any version my fps drops to a point where the game is not enjoyable. I turned everything down in-game and clsoed everything else and it still ran too slow for me.

I'd probably like it more if it was a little more engaging. I tend to enjoy games that present a threat to me and a specific challenge I have to overcome (with consequences for failing). Grimm felt more like a puzzle-style game without a time limit. So you can take your time exploring and running around with no real penalty for screwing up, running into other mobs, falling into water/fluids. Those games are fine for some people, but not really my cup of tea.

I do like simple games so the complexity isn't my issue, I think not being challenged within the game is what keeps me from really getting into it.

I think there is a lot of potential in allowing things to incapacitate Grimm (like too much pretty stuff) and the death sequences for losing could be hilarious. Adding in risks and challeges would make the Grimm experiment more fun for me.

Even though I didn't care for it, I still think it was a great effort. I hope that this Grimm experiment can be a stepping stone for other video game experiments.

I didn't think anyone actualy went to those places. But I think gametap's the right place for grimm because it's a little too +hardcore+ for the bejeweled-playing casual gamers who would look and think "It's 3D imma suck at it"

I can't see any good reason why Grimm is designed in this way as a GameTap product. If you want to make a super casual game, fine, there's a huge market for that. But the GameTap subscriber base is pretty much hardcore gamers by definition. People paying $10 a month to play older games like Deus Ex and Freespace do not have much overlap with casual gamers playing Peggle I would think.

> {quote:title=tqwert1 wrote:}{quote}
> I can't see any good reason why Grimm is designed in this way as a GameTap product. If you want to make a super casual game, fine, there's a huge market for that. But the GameTap subscriber base is pretty much hardcore gamers by definition. People paying $10 a month to play older games like Deus Ex and Freespace do not have much overlap with casual gamers playing Peggle I would think.
But there are already several casual games like older arcade games and various match 3 puzzle games. I think it fits in perfectly with those.

Fo' shizzles B-rizzles

I don't think it's a little "too hardcore" for anyone. If it was designed specifically for non-competitive, novice gamers why was the decision made to smother the Monday tournaments with Grimm? I didn't think those tournaments were populated by non-competitive, novice gamers.

If it's in a tournament... ::in the Grimm voice:: [b]Make it ... challenging![/b]

The more I think about this, the less sense it makes. The whole concept just seems so poorly thought out. They design a game that's on purpose barely a game, and instead is more of an interactive coloring book with fairy tales as background story. According to American's post it's purposely designed to have little appeal to hardcore gamers, yet it's a GameTap exclusive. It's designed for casual gamers and not regular gamers, yet the system requirements are very high. Anybody who has a computer powerful enough to run this game is pretty much assured of being a regular gamer and therefore is not in the target audience for the game. The target audience for the game is unlikely to have a machine powerful enough to run it -- at the most basic level, it will not run with an on board Intel video chip, so you have to be enough of a gamer to have a dedicated video card to even start it up. The casual gaming audience that seems to be the target audience here happens to be heavily tilted towards middle aged and older women. They are actually among the most dedicated gamers out there by hours played. But the humor level of this game is on a middle school level, so even if for some strange reason the middle aged housewife who's the typical casual gamer has a computer that can run this, the subject matter isn't going to appeal to them.

tqwert1,
What are you searching for? A reason why YOU should like this game? Or a reason why others should like it? If others, then please stop your worrying. Grimm is being well received by reviewers and gamers alike. Just spend some time to read many of the recent reviews. Grimm scores solidly in the 6-9 range, even with hard core gaming sites. With casual reviewers and gamers it obviously scores higher. And with each new episode the scores are getting higher.

As for GameTap - Sam & Max is a big hit on the service. So are other casual game offerings. As I see it, GameTap is gamer-category neutral, as should be the case with a digital game library. It contains something for everyone. And so far as Grimm is concerned on GameTap - it is my understanding the title is the most played, most re-played, and most purchased title in the catalog right now. What's wrong with that?

Let's also dispel some of the misconceptions you're creating in your post: Grimm does NOT require an extremely high-end machine. And the idea that a low-end graphics card represents a "hard core gamer" machine is a fallacy. Many basic computers ship with graphics cards capable of running Grimm. We test on very low spec machines in our testing department, to ensure the game is playable on low-end machines first and foremost. The system requirement is not "very high".

As for women gamers, you are correct in stating some might not be interested in the narratives we've created, but I doubt that's a male vs. female or even age-related question. Just a matter of person preference. (Or are you an expert on what middle-aged women want? Could be a business in that for you!) The writing in the game is top-notch, even if the humor is somewhat juvenile. Most of our outside testers were female, and not a single one objected to the game content or play mechanic - quite the opposite.

You and I know not every game is for every gamer. A top-notch RPG like Fallout (which you can play on GameTap!) can appeal to a certain audience, but will still leave some people wondering, "why is this fun?" Some people will never enjoy a well-crafted FPS. And some people may never get "Grimm". We do agree on something, and that's the fact "Grimm" is an odd beast. It was designed with a lot of new ideas, targeting a wide audience, and intentionally developed to be an evolving concept. Some things in the game work, some don't. What's unique and cool about Grimm is that with each new episode we can guide it in directions that seem to be working, and remove parts that fail. Keep playing the upcoming episodes and you'll see that for yourself.

You, like all the other users on GameTap and Grimm players in the world, can submit suggestions to the development team directly, here, via this forum, or directly to me via my blog/forum (www.americanmcgee.com). We look forward to hearing from you and all.

> {quote:title=AmericanGT wrote:}{quote}
> tqwert1,
> Grimm scores solidly in the 6-9 range
Who gave a 9? Just curious. Btw, I loved Alice. Will you bring it back?

> Let's also dispel some of the misconceptions you're creating in your post: Grimm does NOT require an extremely high-end machine.
A lot of people are saying this because the default settings are maxed for a rather blocky-art game. People don't understand why the crude graphics are pwning older machines, and- seeing the blocky-art- don't know they should turn it down. Reduce the default settings for the casual audience who doesn't know any better, and you'd fix this. Or do an fps check and adjust it automatically.

> As for women gamers, you are correct in stating some might not be interested in the narratives we've created, but I doubt that's a male vs. female or even age-related question.
Way too PC. If that was true, sex or age wouldn't be a studied demographic. We can avoid chauvinism while still discussing demographics, right?

> What's unique and cool about Grimm is that with each new episode we can guide it in directions that seem to be working, and remove parts that fail. Keep playing the upcoming episodes and you'll see that for yourself.
Yes, they do seem to be getting a lot more fun. I actually replayed puss 'n boots and tried for all the bonuses.

One edit: it'd be nice not to have to download 230mb every episode- just keep one engine and add to the program.

{quote}A lot of people are saying this because the default settings are maxed for a rather blocky-art game. People don't understand why the crude graphics are pwning older machines, and- seeing the blocky-art- don't know they should turn it down. {quote}
Its not blocky its low polygon. Its textures are SMOOTH if blocky you would see jagged edges to the polygons..... What you dont understand is there is more to that, there is mapping (texture maps) grimm has great tex map this uses some resources, there is the particles the scripts and think they use warp. This is all just 3d not the engine.


{quote}Reduce the default settings for the casual audience who doesn't know any better, and you'd fix this. Or do an fps check and adjust it automatically.{quote}

I have to turn it up on mine I think some of this is up to gamer.

{quote}Way too PC. If that was true, sex or age wouldn't be a studied demographic. We can avoid chauvinism while still discussing demographics, right? {quote}

sure in some things sex and age will make diff. in this game no. I like the game, my girlfriend does and my mom who is 60.

29 female
30 male
60 female

hmmmmm. Dont have to be a spec age or sex to be easily offended. Those that are play something else. Same with tv dont like watch something else. Kids shouldnt see get tv with chip.

Sam & Max were not casual shovelware like this crap. They were great adventure games. If this is where GameTap's going to be devoting their dwindling resources (how long before the planned Turner sell off leads to a shutdown?), I'm out. I'm canceling my gold subscription until they actually spend money on developers making, you know, games, instead of glorified screensavers.

Dont understand your point. Gametap doesnt make SAM AND MAX. I dont like sam and max . I dont see why it makes you mad gametap is involved in a game. Near all games are other co. Many like grimm if you hate it ok.

> {quote:title=xtreeme wrote:}{quote}
> Its not blocky its low polygon.
/facepalm

> What you dont understand is there is more to that, there is mapping (texture maps) grimm has great tex map this uses some resources, there is the particles the scripts and think they use warp. This is all just 3d not the engine.
OpenGL parlor tricks from the 90s. This isn't high tech. I don't know what the issue is, I can't see the code, but blocky-art need not lag.

> sure in some things sex and age will make diff. in this game no. I like the game, my girlfriend does and my mom who is 60.
Demographics don't imply absolutes. Citing that your mother plays Grimm won't change that there are two sexes, not one, and that there are statistically measurable differences in game appeal.

Try DX not openGL, mapping, particles um no trick thats 3d on that note and the rest of the post no response.....youve made your mind up why keep force your +opinion+ on everybody.

> {quote:title=AmericanGT wrote:}{quote}
> The issue IS one of "target audience". Our goal was to build something that [b]anyone[/b] could sit down and play.

I think this is the primary point that you seem to be missing, tqwert1. You seem to align yourself with the 'hardcore gamer' moniker, as I would myself. You seem almost offended that GameTap would bother to help create a game that doesn't immediately make us want to lick our computer screens. You've got to understand, it's a business and things like this will (hopefully) extend their user base, which then helps open the door to them providing more games.

> Look at it another way: You're playing the game in :30 minute chunks, and so far each chunk has gotten progressively more challenging and introduced new game mechanics or concepts. So, by the time we get to episode 24... who knows, maybe the game will even throw you into a lake of lava while rocket launcher machines rain constant death upon your heads.

This comment makes me completely sated with the progression of the game, as I had not considered that angle. Now that there are episodes released based off of stories that I don't already know, I can shelf my difficulty complaints and focus a little more on the story line.

>{quote:title=tqwert1 wrote:}{quote}
>I'm canceling my gold subscription until they actually spend money on developers making, you know, games, instead of glorified screensavers

That's cutting off your nose to spite your face, but if you feel that strongly about it, I suppose that's your prerogative.

Finally, without trying to sound like a total kiss-up, this is the type of intellectual defending I wish more developers would take up about their work. Especially in light of Denis Dyack's forum antics, this type of discussion is much appreciated.

Just out of curiousity, are alot of you experiencing this massive lag (that I get too) proud owners of ATI cards? I've seen much weaker nivida cards handle grimm better than my ATI card. I'm almost beginning to wonder if it's an ATI problem...