> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=SScorpio00 wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> > I'll give Exent some leeway with the x64 port since when it first came out very few people used it and then it was mainly power users. However, it is now mainstream.
>
>
>
> A whopping 3.5%. About the same as . Putting crap on the shelf doesn't make it mainstream.

Go look around on the internet at store bought systems. See how many are 32-bit vs 64-bit. 64-bit is now, or at least quickly becoming, the rule, not the exception. And all systems will eventually go 64-bit. Windows 7 will be both, but it will likely have a bent towards 64-bit more than 32-bit, like Vista is now.

We're going around in circles. I've already rebutted both arguments in these threads.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> We're going around in circles. I've already rebutted both arguments in these threads.

So far you've posted a link to the feelings of a software developer that matches your views. They state that 64-bit support is a very highly request feature; however, they don't feel that the market is there. This is for Dragon Naturally Speaking which has been horribly setup for years. Back in 1998 when Windows 95 was out for over 3 years Dragon's Software was still not following standard Microsoft deployment steps. This caused many issues on a customer's system as it completely went against their automated deployment rules and many long meetings to get the exceptions pushed through. And if you're curious this was for Ford.

You also posted a link to Steam's survey. This is unscientific; however, it does provide a good overview of trends in the industry. Look at the stats today, the percentage for Vista x64 is lower than when you posted yes I'm not seeing major deviation in numbers from yesterday . Also this survey has been ongoing since November 2007. Microsoft has stated that for the last 4 months or so that 64-bit sales have taken off. What would it look like if a fresh start of the data was taken and only new entries used.

Whether you feel that 64-bit support is or isn't worth it isn't the point.

Here are the facts that matter:

1) 64-bit Vista is available in normal retail channels.
2) Normal non-hardcore consumers are buying it.
3) These consumers are not able to fully utilize Gametap, and there doesn't appear to be any work being done to correct this issue.

The people posting here are fans of Gametap, we just want to be able to fully utilize the service on standard hardware and what is becoming the standard version of the most used consumer operating system.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> We're going around in circles. I've already rebutted both arguments in these threads.
You've rebutted exactly two things: jack and squat.

I've made perfectly valid and logical points.

I understand if all ye passionate 64 bit folks didn't bother to read the first 64bit thread, probably haven't read this thread either, and are just posting your own frustrations. I did answer any and all relevant points. Such as,

1) Flooding the market doesn't mean people are buying it. See blu ray, as I cited. See the steam survey, as I cited. Also refer to the facts stated as to why someone might want 64bit. Who needs it? Do 50% of people need it, as the same ratio to the amount advertised in a store? No. Mostly it is uninformed buyers who think 64 is just bigger and therefore better without considering the impact. Also known as, the Uninformed Buyer. Is this audience representative of a positive return on investment in the technology? Nobody knows. Someday, yes. That day isn't today.
2) Modern games do not need 4+gb to run. Wave and point hysterically at Crysis all you want; that needs video card power. Also see the specs of the ps3, which supports that statement. Hmm, look at those memory sizes. Wonder what conclusions we can draw about gaming and memory?

Said it before, said it again.

Even though it doesn't +need+ 3GB+ of RAM and a 64-bit OS to run, it still will run on them. That's the problem here. People who chose to do it for future proofing are getting left out.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> 1) Flooding the market doesn't mean people are buying it. See blu ray, as I cited.
Incompatible example. Unless we are talking about blu-ray adoption by ps3 owners. If people want to buy a computer, the included OS being 64-bit is becoming, or is now already, the rule and not the exception.

> See the steam survey, as I cited.
That has enough holes in it to drive a truck through.
Surveys are only run every several months. You don't have to fill out a survey. Not everyone using a 64-bit system plays games. Not everyone playing game runs Steam. Etc.

> {quote:title=Cartigan wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> > 1) Flooding the market doesn't mean people are buying it. See blu ray, as I cited.
> Incompatible example.

Because you don't want to hear it or because it isn't true ? I want to hear more about how products for sale is more scientific than a survey by a GT competitor. Ever heard of ET game not selling millions of units? Production does not equal sale.

> Surveys are only run every several months. You don't have to fill out a survey. Not everyone using a 64-bit system plays games. Not everyone playing game runs Steam. Etc.

Everyone who runs Steam plays games. And if somehow you're positing the 64bit population unanimously decided not to click submit by the hundreds of thousands, but the 32bit did, I'd say you're out of touch.

Also, if you're going to talk about demographics, how many 64bit folks are into classic gaming? Less than 50 , if solely judging by both 64bit threads, even if we assume there are more. I'd rather more games for the majority than spend money on a 2.5% minority of whom even less will subscribe.

What nonsense. It is an obvious and clear fact to the majority of people here that 64-bit OS's ARE beyond any doubt the future. Beyond ANY doubt. The only argument is time frame. Mmm, you used to post back in the original thread that only people who build their own PC's would go 64bits because it wasn't available in stores. I said it would be at least half the PCs sold by Christmas 2008. I wonder who is going to be right on that score? Or hell, who is already right.

This flooding the market with is b.s. People were demanding 64bit vista from the manufacturers because they were pissed that their 4gb machine was only using 3gbs of ram. Rightly so in fact. I'd be ticked too if I spent the extra cash for more ram and basically am told- well at least it looks pretty. And bluray - talk about apples and oranges. That's even worse than comparing Gametap to Dragon Naturally Speaking. So now we're comparing Gametap to Bluray players? Which for the record- I almost always watch Bluray when given the choice. The only possible validity to your argument was if you were going to state that people will stick with DVD instead of going to bluray so people will stick with a 32bit OS instead of going to a 64bit OS --- and I would LOVE to hear you explain that.

FACTS:
1.) There is NO doubt that eventually ALL PCs will be 64bit OS
2.) There is NO doubt that the majority of NEW PC owners will use 64bit OS's in the very near future.
3.) There is NO doubt that the number of NEW PC owners using a 64bit OS is on the rise.
4.) There is NO doubt that this WILL be a problem for more and more Gametap consumers as time goes on.
5.) There is NO doubt that this is and will be revenue loss for Gametap. There is NO doubt that this is a money hole and NO doubt that this hole will get wider over time.

The only possible logical argument is debating timeframes. Which I pointed out numerous times in the other thread. At years start you couldn't. ... literally couldn't buy a preconfigured PC from an electronics store with a 64bit OS. Now it's nearly half the models available and nearly all of the good PCs (and laptops!! which I think says even more). Gamers I'm certain flip over computers more often than average computer users. Next year it will be increasingly difficult to buy a GOOD computer that is still running a 32bit OS for a lot of reasons I've mentioned before (i.e. preconfigured PCs aren't going to put the top of the line processors and video cards into a box with 2 gb of RAM that would be beyond pointless). Whatever the percentage is now of gametap users having problems because of this, if it was 5% over this past year- it will be well over 10% next year. If you can't BUY a new PC with a 32bit OS don't you think that's going to just be a 'little' bit of a problem for gametap's current customer base? Something the majority of their customers are eventually going to face over the next 2-4 years? So it's OBVIOUS they'll eventually have to do something before no one can run their damn program. What does waiting accomplish? Does anyone except for mmmyeah think that all these computer companies are going to wake up and say, oh wait 32 bits is the future what were we thinking. Intel will stop releasing 64bit processors. Microsoft, Macintosh, Linux flavors will stop offering 64 bit OS's. Companies will stop selling 4-8 gig ram kits. Yes, that is so going to happen. It makes perfect sense.

Finally, 50 people. You honestly think that any more than a small percentage of people who quit gametap bother searching for and posting on this thread? I doubt it's even 1% of the people who've quit over this. Do you always post on company forums when you stop using their service? I don't. Most people don't bother. Why would they?

This is nonsense. The only possible argument is 'when' 64bit OS's will be the standard in homes (it is already the standard in new PCs or close enough). So, as it is QUICKLY becoming if not already the standard in new PCs ... the only time window is how often people buy/build a new PC. So 3-5 years roughly. Roughly 20-33% of people who game upgrade their machines in a given year, I think that's a perfectly reasonable figure. And let us not forget that it wasn't until halfway through this year that 64bit OS's became mainstream in electronics stores. I have no doubt personally that a good 20% of gametap customers will be impacted because of this by years end 2009.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> Because you don't want to hear it or because it isn't true ? I want to hear more about how products for sale is more scientific than a survey by a GT competitor. Ever heard of ET game not selling millions of units? Production does not equal sale.
>
Are you positing that people arn't buying computers any more?

> Everyone who runs Steam plays games.

Which doesn't address anything I said. Because all mammals arn't cows doesn't mean cows arn't mammals.

But all toasters toast toast!

I want Fallout. I'm on 64-bit Vista.

Obligatory "GameTap sucks" statement.

Tuntis check out www.gog.com they have Fallout 1 for $5.99 DRM free. Same with Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics.

Look at video cards. How many people buy high end $600 video cards compared to people who buy the $150-200 cards? If Nvidia and ATI thought the way some of you are thinking we wouldn't have any high end video cards or SLI at that. Out of all the computers out their probably only a slim percent buy the high end cards but still graphics card makers still make them.

64bit is the future and if every company thought "not many people use 64bit" then we'd just stay at 32bit. This is why 64bit XP didn't hit it big because driver makers and software devs didn't think it was the right time. When is the right time? Make it and they will come. Its the same with 64bit Firefox and other 64bit software. Devs just have to develop for 64bit because thats the way the trend is leading and the can't just wait till last minute.

Its not all GameTaps fault, because besides finding someone else to fix or develop their virtualization software (which they probably have a contract with who's doing it now), their backs against the wall.

> {quote:title=guintu wrote:}{quote}
> Look at video cards. How many people buy high end $600 video cards compared to people who buy the $150-200 cards? If Nvidia and ATI thought the way some of you are thinking we wouldn't have any high end video cards or SLI at that. Out of all the computers out their probably only a slim percent buy the high end cards but still graphics card makers still make them.
>

You, also, are ignoring the point that all computers come with an OS and Vista 64 bit is becoming the rule, not staying the exception.

And 64 bit OS support 32 bit software so it doesn't make sense that Gametap isn't running...

I am running 64bit Vista and I can't run all gametap games. I'm in that boat as are probably all the people posting here.

Most 32bit programs and games do run on Vista 64 this is true, probably even some of the same games if you bought them off the rack they'd run on Vista 64. It has nothing to do with the games itself but the virtualization software that GameTap uses. I can play Call of Duty 4 on my 64bit Vista machine but if GameTap were to get it, I probably wouldn't be able to play it. Its just the matter of fact and I don't understand why, but thats just the way it is.

> {quote:title=Cartigan wrote:}{quote}
> You, also, are ignoring the point that all computers come with an OS and Vista 64 bit is becoming the rule, not staying the exception.

Great. When 'is becoming' changes to, 'became,' let us know. Vista flopped, wait'll next time.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
>
> Great. When 'is becoming' changes to, 'became,' let us know. Vista flopped, wait'll next time.
And next time there will be a tendency away from 32 bit to 64 bit. Are you pretending they are going to stop making 64 bit systems?

It isn't when VIsta64 becomes mainstream- it already is. Hence why all these people buying new PC's are suddenly shocked to discover Gametap won't work for them. I would even go so far as to say the MAJORITY of gaming PCs sold now are vista64.
As to the question about how many people buy $500-$600 video cards compared to $150-$200 video cards- you have to keep in mind that the $150 video cards were $500 a year ago. Computer parts drop in cost fast. Where with most electronics it would take years for that new Television set or Radio, a video card or processor will drop in cost within months. Half gig video cards are cheap now, they were a mint just a little while ago. DDR3 ram is half the cost it was a year ago. 4 gigs of DDR2 ram can be had for under $100. It's no longer high end to have a system with over 4 gigs of memory.
Also as to whether or not vista flopped- Windows 7 is using the Vista core. New PCs and laptops come with Vista. So whether or not people are personally going out of their way to upgrade to vista over xp, most people don't upgrade their own OS, and will get it automatically when buying a new computer.

Just finished computer shopping cause I was in the market for my first new computer in 3 years (ordered a Dell with 64-bit Vista SP1). I was shocked at the percentage of systems in stores and online that are shipping with 64-bit by default now, it's great! Even the $599 desktop on the back of the Dell mailer catalog has Vista 64-bit. Gametap's market of potential customers must be shrinking pretty rapidly (not to mention their existing subscriber base). I wouldn't prepay for any long subscriptions at this point, they won't last long at this rate. Turner was smart to dump them when they did.

I think it's do or die for them now that 64-bit is mainstream: they're better off writing their own 64-bit driver now rather than waiting for this 3rd party component to get fixed. Sure beats going out of business.

Here's some more fuel to throw on the fire:

For reference, Left 4 Dead requires 2GB of memory.

> {quote:title=mmmyeahright wrote:}{quote}
> http://knowledgebase.nuance.com/view.asp?60VQ=JLJG
>
> See their 64-bit assessment.
This is meaningless. I could point to many, many more companies that do specifically support 64bit operating systems. Obviously they felt the market size and potential return justified the investment. So pointing to a few software products that felt supporting 64bit wasn't worth it hardly means anything when there are multitudes of companies that did feel it was worth it. Perhaps you hadn't considered them because companies that support 64bit don't need to overtly put out pages specifically explaining why they support 64bit (unlike companies that don't support 64bit), because you don't need explanations and excuses when something works.

Beyond this, the costs of implementation across vastly different software products certainly aren't uniform. You're assuming that the cost of development for 64bit support would outweigh the potential return. That's a very big assumption given that you have no concrete data on the costs of developing a 64bit version of the Exent driver or the potential market size (sorry, I'm not willing to accept the Steam survey is accurately representative of GameTap's potential market). Certainly the Vista x64 market doesn't compare to the prevalence of 32bit systems, but I wouldn't be willing to assume that the costs of developing a 64bit driver are that great.

Let me make it clear that I'm not implying the inverse assumption is true. I'm not saying that the market is large enough that it'd be worth it for them - but that assumption is no more or less grounded in fact than yours.

Regardless, I'm not sure what your goal is here. You're never going to convince anyone that it's unreasonable to expect 64bit support, given that we get 64bit support from practically everything else (GameTap and an outdated Nortel VPN client that my office uses are the only pieces of software that I've wanted to use an haven't been to run able to due to 64bit). As consumers we don't care about company profits; we care about holding them to a standard that a vast number of other products have no trouble meeting.

Perhaps you mean only to offer up theory for why we're not getting 64bit support and if so that's fine; but if you're trying to convince people that it's not "right" of them to want or expect 64bit support - that's completely preposterous.

I would like to add the irony of using Steam Surveys to show companies shouldn't support 64-bit users. Steam actively builds 64-bit executables of their games, even though the 32-bit ones run fine on a 64bit system. So, it seems heavily ironic to try to quote a source in the argument "supporting 64bit users is pointless" when Steam goes out of their way for their 64bit user base, to the point of merely getting slightly better performance. They could just use 32bit game versions and no one would complain, but they go that extra mile. Yet mmm, you've used Steam as justification not to support 64bit OS's here. How does that make sense? One of the companies most supportive of their 64bit users and you're trying to twist that around to claim there shouldn't be 64bit support?

> {quote:title=OfficerJoe wrote:}{quote}
> Just finished computer shopping cause I was in the market for my first new computer in 3 years (ordered a Dell with 64-bit Vista SP1). I was shocked at the percentage of systems in stores and online that are shipping with 64-bit by default now, it's great! Even the $599 desktop on the back of the Dell mailer catalog has Vista 64-bit. Gametap's market of potential customers must be shrinking pretty rapidly (not to mention their existing subscriber base). I wouldn't prepay for any long subscriptions at this point, they won't last long at this rate. Turner was smart to dump them when they did.
>
> I think it's do or die for them now that 64-bit is mainstream: they're better off writing their own 64-bit driver now rather than waiting for this 3rd party component to get fixed. Sure beats going out of business.

That's the point I have been repeatedly making and having ignored. I have been shopping for a laptop and it is almost impossible to find a 32bit system.

I can never understand the logic behind people who defend Gametap on this issue. Do they really have nothing else to do? Those of us who have 64 bit Windows can't run Gametap. People with 32 bit can. Therefore it's a lot easier for those people to ignore the problem (since they DON'T have a problem) than us. We have a legitimate complaint. They do not. What do they have to lose if Gametap started supporting 64 bit Windows? Absolutely nothing.

Please think before clicking "post message".